tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5637864682999679595.post641456787486653666..comments2024-02-13T03:24:07.880-06:00Comments on The Eye-Witness: The Baptism QuestionAged parenthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05217229048176272954noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5637864682999679595.post-17870536981191821902016-02-28T09:49:32.303-06:002016-02-28T09:49:32.303-06:00Jeannette,
Thank you very much for your thoughts....Jeannette,<br /><br />Thank you very much for your thoughts.<br /><br />I don't believe St Benedict Center is debating the question; rather they are trying to bring some clarity to it by showing how opinionns on it vary, even among Saints, and that Baptism of Desire has not been dealt with dogmatically by the Church. Perhaps it will one day, but for now the safest course is, as you suggest, baptism with water. It would be presuming upon God's mercy to assume that good people can attain eternal salvation merely by some vague "wish" for Baptism.<br /><br />Thanks again for your comment.Aged parenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05217229048176272954noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5637864682999679595.post-64307439916254022362016-02-28T09:18:59.642-06:002016-02-28T09:18:59.642-06:00First of all, catechisms are NOT infallible. Secon...First of all, catechisms are NOT infallible. Second, the heresies of baptism of desire and blood are NOT part of Divine Revelation. They are man-made theological ramblings, born out of sentimentalism. I, too, have a problem with the SBC's separating justification and baptism with water. <br /><br />Our Lord, Who proclaimed Himself Truth, said, "Unless a man be born again of WATER and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven." And, "Go therefore and teach all nations, BAPTIZING them in the Name...." Our Lord cannot and will not lie. He gave the command to baptize with water. I am sure that St. Peter Claver, who baptized with water over 200,000 souls, gave no thought to such specious intellectual gymnastics as we do today. Did the North American martyrs, one of whom crawled in the snow gravely wounded while trying to get snow so he could baptize the Indian in front of him, walk into the horrid, filthy camps preaching BOD and BOB? Look, to our missionary saints! Father de Smet wrote that he was sure the very ill babies waited for him to arrive so they could be baptized before they died. St. Joan of Arc raised dead babies to life so they could be baptized. <br />The examples are to many to list. <br /><br />Instead of debating this question, ask Our Lord to increase your faith, and believe all the Truths which He has revealed, Who can neither deceive nor be deceived.<br />French Vanilla Decafhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03542882011348686763noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5637864682999679595.post-19042593523486955102016-02-26T22:43:20.952-06:002016-02-26T22:43:20.952-06:00Thanks for your reply.
There is a bit more to t...Thanks for your reply. <br /><br />There is a bit more to the Holy Innocents question than I wrote. Herod gave orders to kill every child under the age of two, if I recall correctly. There is no scriptural indication that all of the Holy Innocents were Jewish, yet we know that there were a variety of nationalities living in the area at the time. Were the pagans caught in the net saved? What does it mean to say that a two-year old child "lived faithfully according to God's word?" Jewish circumcision served roughly the same purpose before Christ as Baptism does afterwards. But only men can be circumcised. How did the women slip through? What was the exception or theology? Could that be applied to pre-Incarnation pagans? Israel was a very small nation. There were Patriarchs before Abraham. They were not circumcised. How did that work?<br /><br />With regard to the state of pagans before or after the Incarnation, that is what we are trying to discover, isn't it? I can point out one large difference between the time before the Incarnation and the time after. After, Our Lord gave His Church the Great Commission. So there were Saints like Isaac Jogues and Francis Xavier.<br /><br />Anyway, I believe that the vast lot of humanity goes to hell. There is better than even odds that that number may include me. I'm hardly a good Catholic, let alone a righteous pagan. Most people follow neither the natural law nor their conscience, but blindly follow their passions. So to a certain extent this is an angel and pin question. That is why I support the SBC's emphasis on EENS, and would like to see it stridently emphasized. Anybody who is a non-Catholic that wants to argue against EENS is objectively lost, because they have already had the truth revealed to them. <br /><br />If EENS were held firm, then all the questions about what happens to so and so could be answered with another question:<br /><br />"Are you Catholic? If not, look to your own soul. If so, then pray and sacrifice."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5637864682999679595.post-51013620568893354202016-02-23T19:51:15.440-06:002016-02-23T19:51:15.440-06:00Anon@6:27
You brought up several points but I wil...Anon@6:27<br /><br />You brought up several points but I will comment on just one that seems to me to be self-evident.<br /><br />You wrote: "The Holy Infants are venerated, yet they could not desire, nor even make an act of witness for Christ through their deaths. How does that fit? What about those prior to Christ. Being a non-Israelite pretty much meant that you were damned if you were born before Christ. Is that what is being taught? I don't think so."<br /><br />It is my understanding that prior to Calvary the Jews who lived faithfully according to God's word died justified, and spent their time in the Limbo of the Just while awaiting Christ's sacrifice. "He descended into hell, and on the third day rose again from the dead" would seem to support this, namely: that the souls of the justified were taken to Heaven after Calvary. I am not sure what else that could mean, though I will bow to a more precise explanation of the theology from others.<br /><br />The Holy Innocents would also come under this as well, and they were assuredly taken into Heaven after the Sacrifice of the Cross.<br /><br />As far as those pagans I believe you referred to as living in pre-Christian times I would only surmise that their state is similar to those who live now, which is why, I imagine, Saints like Isaac Jogues and Francis Xavier went on their missionary journeys.Aged parenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05217229048176272954noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5637864682999679595.post-71653737499840268182016-02-23T19:27:00.386-06:002016-02-23T19:27:00.386-06:00With regard to St. Gregory Nazianzen, his criticis...With regard to St. Gregory Nazianzen, his criticism of baptism of desire may not be solid. The words of Our Lord seem to judge intentions:<br /><br />Matthew 5:21-22 "You have heard that it was said to them of old: Thou shalt not kill. And whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment. But I say to you, that whosoever is angry with his brother, shall be in danger of the judgment. And whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council. And whosoever shall say, Thou Fool, shall be in danger of hell fire."<br /><br />and later, he talks about committing adultery through thought. So my question would be if God can judge evil thoughts/intentions, how would he not judge good ones?<br /><br />Perhaps Mr. Kelly's thesis is correct. But he does not give us much to stand against it. And Trent supports Baptism of Desire, as well as the catechism of St. Pius X, etc. etc. The Church should rule on this (but maybe not right now), and we should get back to acting like being a Catholic is necessary.<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5637864682999679595.post-64366653142786710562016-02-23T18:48:57.541-06:002016-02-23T18:48:57.541-06:00Penance of Desire is Perfect Contrition. This may...Penance of Desire is Perfect Contrition. This may or may not be rare, but it is certainly not impossible.<br /><br />The other sacraments do not deal strictly with the possibility of being saved. One can be saved without any of the sacraments except Baptism, (and Penance if one has fallen into grave sin). God wants us all to be saved. He doesn't want us all to be married, etc.<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5637864682999679595.post-45135055333547944072016-02-23T18:27:24.811-06:002016-02-23T18:27:24.811-06:00I have always found the "split" between ...I have always found the "split" between justification and salvation that is offered by the SBC to be confusing. Their position that one can be justified, yet not enter into heaven is an argument that I have not come across from other Catholic authors. This may be ignorance on my part, since it is essentially only SBC authors that are even addressing this issue.<br /><br />If one is justified, meaning in sanctifying grace, yet not baptized, how does it comport with God's mercy to send this soul to limbo or hell? Can one be in the state of sanctifying grace yet at the same time still be stained with Original Sin? I do not believe so, and it is my understanding that Original Sin is what prevents us from entering heaven (in addition to actual sin, of course).<br /><br />There is a saint who is in the Roman Martyrology who dies at the hands of pagans while yet a catechumen. Unfortunately, I forget her name. It was a baptism of blood and desire, since she had the intention to join the Church, but this example may muddy the waters since both non-sacramental baptisms are present.<br /><br />The Holy Infants are venerated, yet they could not desire, nor even make an act of witness for Christ through their deaths. How does that fit? What about those prior to Christ. Being a non-Israelite pretty much meant that you were damned if you were born before Christ. Is that what is being taught? I don't think so.<br /><br />In short, I believe that the absolute strict prohibition on any chance of heaven without baptism of water is over the top and beyond the competence of the SBC or Fr. Feeny to declare (if I understand their arguments). <br /><br />Having said that, I do believe that the only way we humans can ensure entrance into heaven is through Baptism of Water. Baptism of Water is easy, quick, accessible, and valid for even a pagan to perform. All you need is water, the Trinitarian formula, and the desire to do what the Church does. Even protestants do this in their communities. It is my opinion that protestant babies are actually Catholic, since it is our Sacrament, at least until the age of reason.<br /><br />So I fully support the SBC's focus on EENS, and I deplore the everyone-goes-to-heaven indifferentism, the "canonization" of people at funerals, and the muck you get from modernist prelates. But it smacks of Calvinism to think that God would turn His back on a person of good will who desires baptism, but is prevented from it by forces beyond his control, as if he simply were not of the Elect, and so was lost from all eternity.<br /><br />By all means, proclaim EENS. Clarify that invincible ignorance is not an eighth sacrament. Inform people of their responsibility to be baptized and join the One True Faith. But to definitively state that those without baptism of water are not possibly in heaven?...um, maybe not.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5637864682999679595.post-72209402192312215842016-02-23T15:05:39.428-06:002016-02-23T15:05:39.428-06:00You're probably right.You're probably right.Aged parenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05217229048176272954noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5637864682999679595.post-28975173820748221522016-02-23T14:58:41.664-06:002016-02-23T14:58:41.664-06:00Whatever happens, do not let Pope Chatty the First...Whatever happens, do not let Pope Chatty the First express an opinion on the subject.<br />He would, no doubt, have the Almighty scratching his own head.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com